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The Problems that SG Servers Face in 2020

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Today, I just wanted to post some thoughts on the forums about the recent experiences I’ve been having playing here and the effects they’ve had on me. I’ve been playing here for about three years, as I joined around 2017, and I’ve had my fill of experience, though I did take a bit of a break in the middle. Anyways, I’ve just wanted to talk about some of the problems that I think the servers are facing that are relatively recent and are crippling the potential for SG.

 

While by no means I am stating that what I am stating is fact, I want to delve into what I think is killing these servers, from the neglect of administrators to do their job, new players not being supported by the community to learn the game, and the increased influx of people who are using alternate accounts or even their primary accounts to rdm or break various other rules and then leave, or stay, in which case they usually aren’t even punished.

 

Rulebreakers

 

I’m not sure if this is a going trend, but from my observations, this month has been terrible in terms of the number of people with <1000 karma, that come onto the server and clearly break the rules, knowing that they are doing so. While this topic I am covering only has my experience applying to the TTT servers, from what I have seen on the forums from various player complaints about the state of various other servers, mainly the jailbreak one, I can tell that this issue is prevalent just about everywhere else, with people either explicitly setting the rulebook aflame, or trying to skirt around it a little and use the rules as thin justification for indecent acts.

 

Admittedly, people who decide to be an asshole and ruin games for other people for fun are always around, but August has seen some of the worst rule-breaking so far. On the TTT server, various different people will come on at least once a day and commit their short experience on the server to freekilling as many people as they can. Multiple times I have been killed out of nothing, then taunted by the person who did it, and at the same time, there is little that can be done against it: most players who play on the TTT server do not have a forum account, nor know how to utilize recording software, and when admins are present, the old rule of, “You have to see it to punish” applies, and even if you do make a player complaint, it has to be a very big rule-breaking circumstance to warrant a punishment from the SG team. Though this rule has been around for a long time, I feel like warnings, slays, and bans were issued much more frequently back when I joined in 2017, when the admins were more lenient with their powers and did enforce the rules, even off of public opinion. Oftentimes, if enough people were complaining about one person, they would be punished, and I don’t think this was necessarily a bad thing, since nowadays, even when admins are present, people like zainab (one such rdmer) don’t give a shit, and go out of their way to murder as many people as they can regardless of the presence of admins. Plus, it took that guy around six separate rdms to finally get a ban. The worst part is, the punishments they receive, such as bans, aren’t even harmful to them, since they play rarely and likely have alts. The bans might as well not even be there, and speaking of which, this leads us to my next topic.

 

Ineffective Punishments

 

Many of the people who rule-break, even in front of admins, as it gives them a kick, rarely ever play the servers. For example, certain people who were banned relatively recently like Chris, zainab, FLORIDA MAN, and others, are far from regulars and the time that they are banned might as well be nonexistent. The next time they come onto the server, maybe a month later, it’s the same behavior, every time, and until a perma-ban is issued, they are a constant nuisance to everyone who comes to just play the game. Plus, permanent bans are extremely hard to issue, and the justification for doing so is hard to warrant. Admittedly, once a permanent ban is given, it does solve the problem, but it only bans one person. People are constantly joining the server, playing the game, learning the rules, and the rate at which more assholes who enjoy rdming for fun are created outpaces the rate at which they are permed.

 

While I am not saying that SG needs to ban anyone and everyone that so much as picks their nose, I am saying that the punishments need to be more severe, or at least preventative so that people who commonly come onto servers and ruin the experience for those who play can be somewhat mitigated, though this may be a difficult task. But all I can say is, back in 2017 when I joined, if an admin was on, the server immediately became clean. The only real rdming and the like occurred when admins were off. Now, so long as they can stay out of sight of the admins, some players who enjoy the chaos kill basically anyone they can, and flip a middle finger to the rules. Alluding to my point earlier of most players not having forum accounts and not knowing how to record, it’s very difficult for these people to be banned. Again, I am not saying that the admins need to be late 1900’s policemen, but the punishments need to be more severe, or we need preventative methods. Let’s move on.

 

The Lack Of Community

 

One of the greatest things that makes online gaming so good is the player-to-player interaction. People add friends all the time and develop a sense of community with the people they play with. As cheesy and stupid as this sounds coming out of my mouth, it’s true, and the social relationships in games are what bring people together and create good times. However, the SG servers basically lack this. And I don’t mean community as in a, ‘everyone has to be friends with each other’ manner, I just mean interactions in general. Only about 10% of the people on the TTT servers at any time actively use their microphones, and while you might say that this is a good thing, since the airwaves are not being cluttered, I find this to be very, very, bad. If a sense of community was developed, good relationships could be formed, and it could even help combat the issue of newcomers turning to the sardonic nature of rule-breaking for fun, since they were already having fun playing with friends in the first place. A preventative measure. Let’s be honest, the gameplay on many servers would be much more dull were it not for the people that you played with, talked with, made friends with, conflicted with, and competed with.

 

Most admins themselves, the people who should be helping the servers along and the community, are basically mute. Encouraging people to talk and open up contributes to the overall mood of the server. If no one were talking except to call out koses and game-related information, I would’ve quit the server a long time ago, and I’m sure I wouldn’t be alone. Sweaty tryharding isn’t my thing, and the fun times you create with the people you play with is what really makes the servers gemstones, at least in certain scenarios. We also barely know anything about each other; I know that somebody is going to present the issue of security, but just talking about yourself a little in game is always nice, and lets other people feel like they know you a bit; again, it gives that sense of community and a meaningful relationship, even if it is online. This, yet again, leads to another problem, and another topic.

 

Admins

 

There are a variety of problems that I see here, all of which I am certain will be disagreed with by someone or another, but I have to indulge. For one, the motivation for becoming an admin has become less to maintain the health of the servers, but rather as a personal shield from rule-breaking. What I mean by this is that multiple admins oftentimes hear and see things happening, but neglect to try and confront the issue. Many of them are just there to play the game, and use their status as admin to instantaneously punish anyone who would make the unwise decision to free-damage, rdm, or otherwise do something against the rules against them. Because of this, the SG servers are filled with administrators unwilling or not motivated enough to actually try and fulfill the original purpose of their role. Maybe I’m wrong, and I’m somehow seeing a minority that are only there to try and play the game with their elevated ranking, but I do not think that is the case as I can only think of a handful of people who literally bust-ass to try and prevent people from getting shat on by rule-breakers.

 

At the same time, admin applications, while not necessarily lenient, have been made into a manner where you don’t really need to know much about the actual person to vote. Someone could act completely nice on the server, make a very good application, be a regular, and they would be accepted. But when off the record, (and I am not saying that this happens) we really don’t know how these people actually act. A good example of this was the discord riot that occurred when multiple SG administrators, as far as my knowledge of the situation goes, decided that it would be funny to delete months of chat, pictures, and other media forms, and replace it with just one topic named, “My Balls.” Though the response by the people on the discord was fucking unacceptable, in the case of doxing one admin involved, nonetheless, it really shows how little we know about the actual people that we appoint to the position of admin, since most people would think it pretty sadistic, and yes, I am saying sadistic, to delete months of multiple persons’ posts just for fun. It’s just about the same thing that many of the people who come onto the TTT server and mass-rdm would do, given the opportunity. Additionally, the banning of Dominic, a former admin for general unwanted behavior also represents how easy it is to fool people into giving you administrative abilities, as I’m sure that Dominic didn’t get admin, and then Legend through blind luck. My point through this is that the character of the person who is accepted, or even denied, is virtually hidden, and no better is this represented than in the examples above and in this screenshot (https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1487830416933726917/9F0AF8CE5FC6999DAB1BBBEC9DA6917D7473A541/), where an admin, in a different game, calls me and another admin faggots because I beat him in a relatively normal match (he sucked at the game). It doesn’t really bother me, but how the hell did these people ever get the administrative position considering how they treat other people? Again, the character is completely disguised, and we have no idea if we are appointing a saint or a crook, though these are mild exaggerations. For the most part, and I will admit this, the majority of people that are accepted are generally good, but this could be a facade for the real personalities of other admins that are not so nice. And considering the recent transgressions during this month, or even year, SG admins aren’t looking so hot.

 

Server Crashes

 

This one is more of a technical issue than the rest of the topics I have brought to light so far, but nonetheless, this one is just as important and damaging as the rest, maybe even more so. The reason for this is the player count and the survivability of the server. I would say that the TTT server crashes occur around every two or three hours, by my estimate. I have no idea if the jailbreak servers are similar, but all I can say is this: when the server crashes for TTT, the player count is effectively cut in half when loading back in afterwards. A good portion of the people who were playing decide to cut their session short right then and there, as not only is the crash a big turnoff for them, they may have decided to do something more pressing, or that they might consider to be more fun. As you might expect, this is pretty bad, since the server thrives with more people, as not only is it more enjoyable, it also puts it closer to the top of the server browser, giving it more publicity when you put in “TTT” in the search engine.

 

This issue isn’t new either. It was here when I started in 2017, and is still here today. Believe me when I say that I know nothing about computers nor servers, so I have no solutions to this issue, but this is one of the major problems that at least the TTT server faces. A crash every two hours, cutting the player count in half, is devastating, and has to be fixed if SG wants to come close to EGO on the player count in the server browser. I do believe that it is something that has to be fixed by the server owners,, as when a crash occurs, it is due to the server, not the players, as everyone is disconnected but no one’s actual game crashes. That much, I am sure of.

 

Conclusion

 

I already know that I will likely receive heavy criticism for saying all this, but I feel like these opinions are very much valid and need to be stated. In 2020, SG is facing an incredible number of problems with the servers and the community, and they do not all stem from rulebreakers. Many of them come from other sources that are unexpected, like the admins themselves. While I understand that disagreement is going to be prevalent, I would prefer that those reading this keep an open mind; I’ve seen a lot of shit in these three years on this server, and I have a feeling that if the issues are not corrected, the servers will only spiral down further. Then we’ll all be left with EGO TTT servers with their shitty rules that don’t allow you to KOS off sound. In any case, I just wanted to try and make a few points about how I feel with the servers, and the problems that they’re facing, at least the TTT one. In the end, I doubt that any of this will matter, as with any large organization, change is a slow, and lengthy process that requires near-unanimous results, and response to this will be far from unanimous. Maybe I’ll be discredited because of my age or my inexperience, or someone will flat out call bullshit on my points, but in the end, these are just my thoughts, feelings and opinions, and I tried to make them as fair to my time here as possible. I would be surprised, but pleased if any of this was taken to heart and some of the problems managed to be corrected. I’ll continue to enjoy the servers as I always do, but I know that these problems can be fixed. Not by me certainly, as I can’t do jackshit for you guys, but what I can do is try to point this out and make it known. Or, I’ll just get flamed for having a different opinion. Who knows.

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23 hours ago, blackwolf0005 said:

 

 

The Lack Of Community

 

One of the greatest things that makes online gaming so good is the player-to-player interaction. People add friends all the time and develop a sense of community with the people they play with. As cheesy and stupid as this sounds coming out of my mouth, it’s true, and the social relationships in games are what bring people together and create good times. However, the SG servers basically lack this. And I don’t mean community as in a, ‘everyone has to be friends with each other’ manner, I just mean interactions in general. Only about 10% of the people on the TTT servers at any time actively use their microphones, and while you might say that this is a good thing, since the airwaves are not being cluttered, I find this to be very, very, bad. If a sense of community was developed, good relationships could be formed, and it could even help combat the issue of newcomers turning to the sardonic nature of rule-breaking for fun, since they were already having fun playing with friends in the first place. A preventative measure. Let’s be honest, the gameplay on many servers would be much more dull were it not for the people that you played with, talked with, made friends with, conflicted with, and competed with.

 

Most admins themselves, the people who should be helping the servers along and the community, are basically mute. Encouraging people to talk and open up contributes to the overall mood of the server. If no one were talking except to call out koses and game-related information, I would’ve quit the server a long time ago, and I’m sure I wouldn’t be alone. Sweaty tryharding isn’t my thing, and the fun times you create with the people you play with is what really makes the servers gemstones, at least in certain scenarios. We also barely know anything about each other; I know that somebody is going to present the issue of security, but just talking about yourself a little in game is always nice, and lets other people feel like they know you a bit; again, it gives that sense of community and a meaningful relationship, even if it is online. This, yet again, leads to another problem, and another topic.

 

 

I wanted to quote this area specifically cause it stands out to me. The part about players barely using there mic and barely no interaction I find to be just false. People interact all the time please check out the discord because you can find a lot of people to interact with therefore making the part about "Lack of Community" false in my opinion. Then what caught my eye even more was the part about "admins themselves, the people who should be helping the servers along and the community, are basically mute". Yes they're mute but they have reasoning to be mute aswell. Think about it to get admin you have to get to know the community so people will recognize your voice (unless your 20 scrolls). So they have good reasoning to not talk because then someone will say "Hey look its (admin)" therefore revealing there cover and informing any rule breaker or cheaters that they're in the server.

 

  

23 hours ago, blackwolf0005 said:

 

 

Server Crashes

 

This one is more of a technical issue than the rest of the topics I have brought to light so far, but nonetheless, this one is just as important and damaging as the rest, maybe even more so. The reason for this is the player count and the survivability of the server. I would say that the TTT server crashes occur around every two or three hours, by my estimate. I have no idea if the jailbreak servers are similar, but all I can say is this: when the server crashes for TTT, the player count is effectively cut in half when loading back in afterwards. A good portion of the people who were playing decide to cut their session short right then and there, as not only is the crash a big turnoff for them, they may have decided to do something more pressing, or that they might consider to be more fun. As you might expect, this is pretty bad, since the server thrives with more people, as not only is it more enjoyable, it also puts it closer to the top of the server browser, giving it more publicity when you put in “TTT” in the search engine.

 

This issue isn’t new either. It was here when I started in 2017, and is still here today. Believe me when I say that I know nothing about computers nor servers, so I have no solutions to this issue, but this is one of the major problems that at least the TTT server faces. A crash every two hours, cutting the player count in half, is devastating, and has to be fixed if SG wants to come close to EGO on the player count in the server browser. I do believe that it is something that has to be fixed by the server owners,, as when a crash occurs, it is due to the server, not the players, as everyone is disconnected but no one’s actual game crashes. That much, I am sure of.

 

 

As you say the server always crashes. There is a area that you can report glitches/crashes/bugs such as the area I highlighted here. So if you're on the server when it crashes please report it here because it can help the AT's find the reason and fix it so it happens less.

  

23 hours ago, blackwolf0005 said:

 

 

Admins

 

There are a variety of problems that I see here, all of which I am certain will be disagreed with by someone or another, but I have to indulge. For one, the motivation for becoming an admin has become less to maintain the health of the servers, but rather as a personal shield from rule-breaking. What I mean by this is that multiple admins oftentimes hear and see things happening, but neglect to try and confront the issue. Many of them are just there to play the game, and use their status as admin to instantaneously punish anyone who would make the unwise decision to free-damage, rdm, or otherwise do something against the rules against them. Because of this, the SG servers are filled with administrators unwilling or not motivated enough to actually try and fulfill the original purpose of their role. Maybe I’m wrong, and I’m somehow seeing a minority that are only there to try and play the game with their elevated ranking, but I do not think that is the case as I can only think of a handful of people who literally bust-ass to try and prevent people from getting shat on by rule-breakers.

 

 

 

Realize that the admins themselves are players just like you. They do enforce the rules but they want to play the game as much as you do. Their rank is so that let's say that there is a mass rdmer that they an act since well they saw the act and have the logs to prove it. But I would assume it would be very tiring to just watch people for hours a day playing the game they want to play just to stop that one RDM that happened. Just realize that admins cannot act without seeing the person break the rule in first person and there are a lot of things to account that logs cannot prove. Such as, you having a KOS or you T baiting another player.

 

At least this is all my opinion but I think others will agree with me.

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27 minutes ago, blackwolf0005 said:

Oftentimes, if enough people were complaining about one person, they would be punished, and I don’t think this was necessarily a bad thing

I understand where you're going as it does make sense that if people are complaining about a single person they are probably doing something wrong. However, this is not always the case and it could actually result in someone getting falsely punished due to a bullying situation.

 

If a person is breaking the rules or being a nuisance enough for people to get annoyed, a player complaint is always welcome. Using alternative means such as !calladmin and/or notifying admins through admin chat/PMs can also get the admin to focus their attention on that one player.

 

A lot of admins are eager to watch blatant rulebreakers and the only times they "supposedly" ignore situations are usually times when they just don't see it happen, and we can't do anything about it if we don't see it happen. I'm guessing you play TTT, so out of the many times you hear someone claim "rdm", how many times do you physically see the entire situation? Almost never if you're not watching the person specifically.

 

This is just what I see other admins do most of the time and what I do, I definitely pay attention to situations of rule breaking and I hope other admins do too.

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@AmazingI appreciate your response, but I have a few things to say about it. Firstly, when I made the point about community, I was referencing the servers themselves, not the discord, not the forums, but the servers, which without all the others could not exist. Plus, from what I have seen, those communities are a very small tight-knit group of admins and regulars that are very different from the average player on the servers, who do not participate in both the forums nor the discord. Secondly, the server crash issue, as far as to my knowledge, has been around for three years; that's a pretty long time, and it's not a small issue either. If you're expecting me to file a bug report, I have to decline as that's pretty time consuming and I'll let someone else not as lazy as me do it. But either way, and I don't mean to be cynical, that's your problem, not mine. Thirdly, the points I made about the admins that you countered by saying they would reveal their cover if they spoke too much are true, but being undercover has not done anything so far. Consider that when people think that there are no admins on, while you may catch more rule-breakers, you'll also inadvertently cause more people to revenge-rdm others when they feel they have been wronged, rather than calling an admin or reporting the issue, since they think they aren't being watched. Also, undercover admins, and I hate to say it, rarely ever do anything. In fact, I would say that they are more undercover for the ability to not get chat-spammed by people who want to report a rdmer. So no, being undercover, at least in my eyes, actually does less than putting the [SG] in front of your name and dealing with the issues head on. And my points about admins hearing and seeing shit but not acting is valid as well, as it happens pretty damn often. Complain as you might, rarely ever does an admin on the server spectate the person reported or slay them. Hell, they often don't even give a warning. While I understand that it's a tough job, many of the people who are supposed to be enforcers have their fingers up their ass. Sorry, but it's true.

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@splaydI get your reasoning that someone may be wrongly punished, but never, have I ever seen the public opinion favor punishing someone who is innocent. And as for seeing the actual rdmer go and rdm, I see it just about all the time. It's very hard not to see when the same person is doing it every round, even if it isn't to you. And as for !calladmin and filing a player report, my point above about most people not knowing how to utilize recording software holds up and !calladmin, at least from my experience, works about 50% of the time. You can call an admin on a guy who's been freekilling about everyone and type "massrdm" into the request, and you'll have to wait ten minutes, or more, or sometimes they will never show up. By that time, the person has usually left. And as for admins being "eager" to see rdm and other rule-breaking happen, I'm going to have to call bullshit. Even when admins are on, most of them never go to spectate someone who has been complained about. You know zainab? Took him six separate rdms in the same session to get banned. And he only got banned off the last two.

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8 minutes ago, blackwolf0005 said:

If you're expecting me to file a bug report, I have to decline as that's pretty time consuming and I'll let someone else not as lazy as me do it. But either way, and I don't mean to be cynical, that's your problem, not mine.

Mentality of every person who doesn't report a crash therefore it not being fixed because no one is willing to report it.

 

8 minutes ago, blackwolf0005 said:

Thirdly, the points I made about the admins that you countered by saying they would reveal their cover if they spoke too much are true, but being undercover has not done anything so far. Consider that when people think that there are no admins on, while you may catch more rule-breakers, you'll also inadvertently cause more people to revenge-rdm others when they feel they have been wronged, rather than calling an admin or reporting the issue, since they think they aren't being watched. Also, undercover admins, and I hate to say it, rarely ever do anything. In fact, I would say that they are more undercover for the ability to not get chat-spammed by people who want to report a rdmer.

Hope you realize even if a admin isin't on admin chat still indeed gets spammed sometimes I know there isin't a admin on but for the situation they're sitting in spec in vanish I make the message regardless and so do others. Reason people undercover don't do anything is because, you the player, usually don't know there is a admin in the server until they tag up.

  

8 minutes ago, blackwolf0005 said:

Complain as you might, rarely ever does an admin on the server spectate the person reported or slay them.

I don't know about TTT but on JB i'd be damned if I said every admin doesn't spectate the player if they free kill a few times or continuously break the rules. I have faith that the TTT admins take there time to spectate the players and you just can't view them because you can't see them in spectate mode.

 

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I'm gonna go play some KF2 so I can take my frustration out on some zeds, I'll reply to this thread later, peace. All of you have fun disagreeing or agreeing, or raging at my impunity in calling out this stuff (joke).

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2 minutes ago, blackwolf0005 said:

@splaydI get your reasoning that someone may be wrongly punished, but never, have I ever seen the public opinion favor punishing someone who is innocent. And as for seeing the actual rdmer go and rdm, I see it just about all the time. It's very hard not to see when the same person is doing it every round, even if it isn't to you. And as for !calladmin and filing a player report, my point above about most people not knowing how to utilize recording software holds up and !calladmin, at least from my experience, works about 50% of the time. You can call an admin on a guy who's been freekilling about everyone and type "massrdm" into the request, and you'll have to wait ten minutes, or more, or sometimes they will never show up. By that time, the person has usually left. And as for admins being "eager" to see rdm and other rule-breaking happen, I'm going to have to call bullshit. Even when admins are on, most of them never go to spectate someone who has been complained about. You know zainab? Took him six separate rdms in the same session to get banned. And he only got banned off the last two.

I don't play TTT often so I can't say the same about TTT admins. However, I can vouch for the whole "bullying" situation on servers such as JB. You're talking about SG servers as a whole and not just TTT, and there are plenty of cases of players being singled out on JB just because they are disliked by the general population; things like people getting killed for bullshit reasons then ganging up on a kid (even though he didn't break the rules). It's these situations I am worried about on all the servers, and if something should be changed in how an admin behaves it should apply to all servers. 

 

You should also think about admins as just regs with powers. We aren't robots that can play 24/7 (although some can) and we aren't always available all the time. These pockets of time without admins on the server are the times you should get your fellow regulars to watch a guy and record clips of rule breaking; it's very uncommon for an entire reg base to not have the capability to record things; it's just the matter if you want to put the effort in yourselves to get rid of rule breakers or just dump the work off onto an admin.

 

If you feel an admin is just feigning ignorance and is just trying to avoid doing anything, make an admin complaint.

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1 hour ago, blackwolf0005 said:

There are a variety of problems that I see here, all of which I am certain will be disagreed with by someone or another, but I have to indulge. For one, the motivation for becoming an admin has become less to maintain the health of the servers, but rather as a personal shield from rule-breaking. What I mean by this is that multiple admins oftentimes hear and see things happening, but neglect to try and confront the issue. Many of them are just there to play the game, and use their status as admin to instantaneously punish anyone who would make the unwise decision to free-damage, rdm, or otherwise do something against the rules against them. Because of this, the SG servers are filled with administrators unwilling or not motivated enough to actually try and fulfill the original purpose of their role. Maybe I’m wrong, and I’m somehow seeing a minority that are only there to try and play the game with their elevated ranking, but I do not think that is the case as I can only think of a handful of people who literally bust-ass to try and prevent people from getting shat on by rule-breakers.

I understand where you are coming from here and I know why you might feel this way but speaking from my own perspective this is very untrue. As admins we are literally unable to issue any form of punishment without being 100 percent certain of the circumstances of the situation. Adming a server, especially TTT where we are given the bare minimum of information on whats going on during the round is extremely difficult to do while playing the game at the same time. Its not that we dont care, we just may not know what is exactly going on at that given moment. 

1 hour ago, blackwolf0005 said:

At the same time, admin applications, while not necessarily lenient, have been made into a manner where you don’t really need to know much about the actual person to vote. Someone could act completely nice on the server, make a very good application, be a regular, and they would be accepted. But when off the record, (and I am not saying that this happens) we really don’t know how these people actually act.

 

1 hour ago, blackwolf0005 said:

My point through this is that the character of the person who is accepted, or even denied, is virtually hidden,

The expectation that every admin that is approved has to be of perfect character is a bit unrealistic. heightening standards like this would lead to a even worse shortage of admins then we have now. As long as they can do their job effectively and not act like a complete idiot than I think someone can be perfectly capable of being an admin.

56 minutes ago, blackwolf0005 said:

!calladmin, at least from my experience, works about 50% of the time. You can call an admin on a guy who's been freekilling about everyone and type "massrdm" into the request, and you'll have to wait ten minutes, or more, or sometimes they will never show up. By that time, the person has usually left.

I often see this statement alot from players. People often seem to forget that we are not in fact robots who are programmed to uphold the rules 24/7. we have lives just like you and we have other things to tend to beside our servers.  Especially call admin reports that occur later in the night. 

 

Edited by Rygor
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