Dropping Nades Should Be In JB: Change My Mind

[20 scrolls]

14 hours ago, The Real Slim Jim said:

how about this so we can cater to 13 IQ players:

 

Gunplanting - When a CT gives a T a Weapon or Equipment

or 

Gunplanting - When a CT gives a T a Weapon or Grenade of any type

 

the current rule set has no implication of the items use, only the CT dropping it to them, why would nades be any different?

Dude what do you not get, we do not wanna change the rule to be more complicated. If a CT drops a terrorist a fucking decoy, why should the CT be punishable for that? Its a fucking decoy.

14 hours ago, The Real Slim Jim said:

was punishable the moment he dropped it to a T under the proposed rule set.

Now imagine If I didn't throw it straight at a CT, just used it to blind them for 3 seconds. Am I now KOS because I simply threw a flashbang? It's a terrible suggestion.

 

14 hours ago, The Real Slim Jim said:

https://www.atf.gov/file/56536/download

 

if you go to page 5 and read; 

 

"Distraction devices may only be obtained for use by Federal, State or local law enforcement agencies."

 

 its pretty easy to see they are classified as a weapon.

We are not basing a rule off of in real life laws. Grenades are not weapons in jailbreak, if they were, you would be KOS, they are not. CSGO is a video game, not real life.

14 hours ago, The Real Slim Jim said:

it seems you are playing devils advocate and trying to create the grey area by not understanding the nature of the rule change. 

 

The change would see all grenades treated as if they were a primary or secondary weapon, as they can all be used in accordance with a primary or secondary weapon to increase its effectiveness. Not to mention all of the grenades have the possibility to be used as a Direct Weapon.

No, they cannot be used as effective as an AK47 can. You literally cannot one shot somebody with a grenade, and 80% of the grenades do not do damage as its primary effect.

 

I should not be KOSed for throwing a decoy in the air.

[The Real Slim Jim]

8 hours ago, 20 scrolls said:

Dude what do you not get, we do not wanna change the rule to be more complicated. If a CT drops a terrorist a fucking decoy, why should the CT be punishable for that? Its a fucking decoy.

so if a CT drops a toy gun ( a gun with no ammo) they should be allowed to do that? by your logic anyways.

 

tangents throw off a thread please stop going on tangents in my thread. if you cannot keep discussions logical and cant keep your feelings towards me reasonable go post a new thread about how my thread is ridiculous.

 

8 hours ago, 20 scrolls said:

Now imagine If I didn't throw it straight at a CT, just used it to blind them for 3 seconds. Am I now KOS because I simply threw a flashbang? It's a terrible suggestion.

yes if that flash had the intention of harming a CT, I.e you use that flash time to run to a secret or someone else knives a CT in that flash time, you are KOS. its use is the Harm, not the HP Damage. all of these grenades can be used in a way that causes major distraction to CT's when used properly. understand the rules you are typing about before putting me on blast.  the rules don't define harm as damage.

 

IDK why you want to white knight the current ruleset so hard but its pretty cringe. 

 

8 hours ago, 20 scrolls said:

I should not be KOSed for throwing a decoy in the air.

when did I suggest this? I am talking about the interaction between a CT and T, Not the T's intentions with the affects of that interaction. 

 

[20 scrolls]

52 minutes ago, The Real Slim Jim said:

so if a CT drops a toy gun ( a gun with no ammo) they should be allowed to do that? by your logic anyways.

Dropping a T a toy gun is gunplanting because the CTs cannot tell whether the gun has ammo or not, so when a T pulls it out, the CTs can absolutely kill them, and you have now caused a T to die because you gunplanted them.

 

52 minutes ago, The Real Slim Jim said:

yes if that flash had the intention of harming a CT, I.e you use that flash time to run to a secret or someone else knives a CT in that flash time, you are KOS. its use is the Harm, not the HP Damage. all of these grenades can be used in a way that causes major distraction to CT's when used properly. understand the rules you are typing about before putting me on blast.  the rules don't define harm as damage.

No it is not about the intention, it's about whether you damage/kill the CT or not. Throwing a flash at a CT is NOT kos because there is no intention to harm, you clearly don't understand the rules. "Being able to kill a Prisoner for throwing a grenade at them if there was a reasonable attempt to harm or kill the Guard" (harm as in damage).

 

52 minutes ago, The Real Slim Jim said:

when did I suggest this? I am talking about the interaction between a CT and T, Not the T's intentions with the affects of that interaction. 

"The change would see all grenades treated as if they were a primary or secondary weapon" you did suggest this, treating them as a secondary would mean I am kos when I pull a decoy out, treating them as a primary makes me automatically KOS. Are you reading what you are posting?

[Kataoka]

On 7/8/2022 at 12:44 AM, The Real Slim Jim said:

 

how about this so we can cater to 13 IQ players:

Ok but catering to people in this situation really do? Its not detrimental to game play, its quality of life and its a better life not having it on.

 

1 hour ago, The Real Slim Jim said:

so if a CT drops a toy gun ( a gun with no ammo) they should be allowed to do that? by your logic anyways.

This is completely something different and idk whats with you guys using idiotic analogies, a gun is a gun at that point whether ammo or not. Yeah yeah oh but it has no ammo, I don't know that its aiming at me im doming the motherfucker ion care

Quote

tangents throw off a thread please stop going on tangents in my thread. if you cannot keep discussions logical and cant keep your feelings towards me reasonable go post a new thread about how my thread is ridiculous.

Like I know we shit on scrolls a lot but everything he is saying is completely logical if you think about it even at an admin standpoint, cause why the fuck would i want to be punishing for someone for dropping a decoy to someone else. like seriously a decoy...

Quote

yes if that flash had the intention of harming a CT, I.e you use that flash time to run to a secret or someone else knives a CT in that flash time, you are KOS. its use is the Harm, not the HP Damage. all of these grenades can be used in a way that causes major distraction to CT's when used properly. understand the rules you are typing about before putting me on blast.  the rules don't define harm as damage.

I mean if the CT dies and i get an assist for it then I can see myself being KOS (If anyone wants to correct me on that, mostly i just don't remember if flash gives assists on JB anymore) but if im just throwing a flash because i want to and a CT gets flashed thats their own damn problem whatever the outcome is (If i run towards a secret I get warning shot, not killed, If i try to run and knife someone OBVIOUSLY  you are trying to rebel at that point) but if someone tries to rebel off my flash that flashed maybe like one CT again why is that falling on the person, also another gray area cause not every situation you can prove the intention of a T.

Quote

 

IDK why you want to white knight the current ruleset so hard but its pretty cringe. 

Hes not really white knighting it. hes tryna help you understand the point of view he has but IMO it kinda looks like you are completely disregarding it

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when did I suggest this? I am talking about the interaction between a CT and T, Not the T's intentions with the affects of that interaction. 

 

 

On 7/8/2022 at 12:44 AM, The Real Slim Jim said:

https://www.atf.gov/file/56536/download

 

if you go to page 5 and read; 

 

"Distraction devices may only be obtained for use by Federal, State or local law enforcement agencies."

 

 its pretty easy to see they are classified as a weapon.

 

To the two quotes above, if you are trying to classify Distraction devices as weapons then yes a decoy would be KOS. cause obviously if the intent is to distract the CTs they should die due to your earlier statement too. Personally in a real prison yes they can be classified as a weapon but on a role play server classifying them as a weapon would make them KOS and would make what you are suggesting even dumber because of the fact gunplanting someone with a "weapon" warrants a slay and that T can be killed.

 

Like i've said before and i'll say again this is a "quality of life" change and its not for the better and makes everything so much more confusing, like seriously why tf am i gonna wanna slay someone over dropping a T a decoy or even warn them, it has to be one of the most idiotic things to be punished for, but yet if the Ts stupid and damages a CT in any way with it they can still die. Its dumb as fuck each situation you can give is dumb as fuck, dropping a grenade to teammates barely changes the outcome of each round, Spam dropping nades would be annoying as fuck too. Like there is so many negatives to just the the singular benefit of dropping nades between teammates. You gotta also look at what admins have to look out for and not this one little little thing you are tryna fight for. Is it a bad suggestion no, is it idiotic how you are going about it, YES. Please if this was gonna be a suggestion how you are trying to argue for it is all wrong. Please listen to all the negatives we have to say about it before continuing this. (You can say I don't play the servers but I played when this was a thing on JB and it was just annoying as fuck with maps that had infinite grenade spawns and people just dropping nades to Ts and it would just create nothing but problems, it was barely used for what you are suggesting it for)
 

 

 

NGL if this shit don't make sense it never does.

 

[The Real Slim Jim]

On 7/9/2022 at 4:42 PM, 20 scrolls said:

"Being able to kill a Prisoner for throwing a grenade at them if there was a reasonable attempt to harm or kill the Guard"

so your interpretation of the rules taxonomy is that it repeats itself in quick concession? that is a very very slow way to write a rule.  so realistically here you are telling me there is a problem with the original writing of the rule(s) and do not have the capability to do anything about it.

 

the way I understand the taxonomy, is that there are two definitions written to describe multiple situations, not one. one being where damage was done intended to kill, the latter, and the other being where harm was done to the CT's control of the round, the former, possibly leading to the ability for a T to rebel. 

 

To me that seems like a more useful, thoughtful, consideration of the language used when writing the rule(s).

On 7/9/2022 at 4:42 PM, 20 scrolls said:

No it is not about the intention

• Being able to kill a Prisoner for throwing a grenade at them if there was a reasonable attempt to harm or kill the Guard. The same applies for when a Prisoner is chasing a Guard and knifing at them.

if you throw any grenade, and miss, but its close and was obvious it had the intention of hitting a CT, you are KOS.

 

you are directly contradicting the wording of the server rules. 

 

go fix them instead of telling me they are broken rules. im not here asking about your problems in your role at sg, I'm here asking for something that improves a T"s ,and the team as a wholes, quality of life.

 

On 7/9/2022 at 4:42 PM, 20 scrolls said:

"The change would see all grenades treated as if they were a primary or secondary weapon" you did suggest this, treating them as a secondary would mean I am kos when I pull a decoy out, treating them as a primary makes me automatically KOS. Are you reading what you are posting?

in relation to the suggestion I made, which now revolves around gunplanting as you brought that up. 

 

so to reiterate, 

On 7/8/2022 at 4:44 PM, The Real Slim Jim said:

the change would see all grenades treated as if they were a primary or secondary weapon when it is a matter of gunplanting, as they can all be used in accordance with a primary or secondary weapon to increase its effectiveness. Not to mention all of the grenades have the possibility to be used as a Direct Weapon.

you are trying to find extra meaning to the original post, maybe you think i want to overthrow JB and be the new @All Tsor @Dominicso i can return it to its once great state.

 

I JUST WANT TO HAVE FUN WITH THE REAMAINDER OF TIME JB HAS LEFT, THIS SEEMS LIKE A WAY TO HAVE MORE FUN. TRY SEEING THE OP FROM MY ANGLE, NOT YOURS.

 

 

 

On 7/9/2022 at 5:14 PM, Mikey. said:

Ok but catering to people in this situation really do? Its not detrimental to game play, its quality of life and its a better life not having it on.

Uhh what? The validity of the statement stands, I changed the definition I gave in my OP.

 

On 7/9/2022 at 5:14 PM, Mikey. said:

This is completely something different and idk whats with you guys using idiotic analogies, a gun is a gun at that point whether ammo or not. Yeah yeah oh but it has no ammo, I don't know that its aiming at me im doming the motherfucker ion care

sorry, I am rather frustrated that the LSM is so tangential, and unwilling to see a valid argument.

 

On 7/9/2022 at 5:14 PM, Mikey. said:

Like I know we shit on scrolls a lot but everything he is saying is completely logical if you think about it even at an admin standpoint, cause why the fuck would i want to be punishing for someone for dropping a decoy to someone else. like seriously a decoy...

Right but all rules are currently up to admin discretion, why would this change anything about that?  I personally wouldn't ask an admin to punish for that. Is it the fact i proposed a rule change in my OP? Is that why its so controversial?

 

and actually most of his arguments are highly hypothetical, worst case scenario arguments. 

On 7/9/2022 at 5:14 PM, Mikey. said:

also another gray area cause not every situation you can prove the intention of a T.

why are people so scared of grey areas.

you can rarely 100% prove a T's intention unless they affirm it. Instead we accept lesser proof as a whole, actionable, intention.

On 7/9/2022 at 5:14 PM, Mikey. said:

Hes not really white knighting it. hes tryna help you understand the point of view he has but IMO it kinda looks like you are completely disregarding it

I heard the argument in the last thread about it, which I read and saw inconsistencies in previous writing on the reasoning behind rule changes in the past. I'm not here to have a point blatantly repeated. I'm here for a review of the last decision, which instead I got copy pasted the last verdict.

 

On 7/9/2022 at 5:14 PM, Mikey. said:

Personally in a real prison yes they can be classified as a weapon but on a role play server classifying them as a weapon would make them KOS and would make what you are suggesting even dumber because of the fact gunplanting someone with a "weapon" warrants a slay and that T can be killed

so you are telling me they aren't a real problem, but the whole reason the interaction was removed is bc it was seen as a problem.

Write it as lethals are not allowed to be dropped to T"s.  I don't care how the rule is worded, I think that T"s should be able to drop grenades amongst themselves. (excuse my short wording)

On 7/9/2022 at 5:14 PM, Mikey. said:

like seriously why tf am i gonna wanna slay someone over dropping a T a decoy or even warn them

admin discretion is a thing, make just lethals a part of gunplanting. my op wasnt a suggestion I had a final solution, but it was asking for it to be addressed by someone who can find one.

 

On 7/9/2022 at 5:14 PM, Mikey. said:

it has to be one of the most idiotic things to be punished for

i have re worded the original post to consider the arguments presented to me by you and by scrolls.  sorry if my wording stepped on toes, and was not accurate to my intentions. 

 

On 7/9/2022 at 5:14 PM, Mikey. said:

You gotta also look at what admins have to look out for and not this one little little thing you are tryna fight for. Is it a bad suggestion no, is it idiotic how you are going about it, YES. Please if this was gonna be a suggestion how you are trying to argue for it is all wrong.

I didn't post it intending to argue on the forums with anyone, id think there would be some sort of discussion amongst those it concerned, followed by a nicely detailed response. not to be shut down on the spot. so if you can see that you will see why the following was somewhat unorganized.

 

 

 

With consideration to what has been told to me,

 

T's should be able to drop nades amongst themselves. gunplantng is not currently a serious issue or something that is abused.  A vast majority of the time JB is populated zero two is on the server to enforce rules, as well as other more junior staff. 

 

so far the only problem with this proposition has been that;

 

staff will have to enforce, 

 

and that not all nades are equally harmful.

 

staff always have the decision to enforce, to tag, to play like a normal person. 

 

make the change revolve solely around dropping HE nades.

 

 I ask for whoever it is replying to now also see the profit in what has been said by me in this thread, albeit it took time to come to a more reasonable post, and to add to what i have asked for here, not to take away from it.

[Kataoka]

15 minutes ago, The Real Slim Jim said:

 

 

I JUST WANT TO HAVE FUN WITH THE REAMAINDER OF TIME JB HAS LEFT, THIS SEEMS LIKE A WAY TO HAVE MORE FUN. TRY SEEING THE OP FROM MY ANGLE, NOT YOURS.

Ngl to me this wouldn’t add any fun even as a normal player, Cause now are CTs going to be allowed to tell you to drop nades too? Or only HE grenades? Like I can see where you are trying to come from but I can’t see this adding any fun

15 minutes ago, The Real Slim Jim said:

 

 

Uhh what? The validity of the statement stands, I changed the definition I gave in my OP.

Honestly I’m not gonna check your OP after I read it the first time… going to be looking at your responses not to see if you changed your OP

15 minutes ago, The Real Slim Jim said:

sorry, I am rather frustrated that the LSM is so tangential, and unwilling to see a valid argument.

eh I can tell which is why I say how you are going about it is all wrong. 

15 minutes ago, The Real Slim Jim said:

 

Right but all rules are currently up to admin discretion, why would this change anything about that?  I personally wouldn't ask an admin to punish for that. Is it the fact i proposed a rule change in my OP? Is that why its so controversial?

not saying it’s controversial just saying I don’t see many people that are going to be trying to use it like you. I don’t care for a rule change, it happens look at TTT (no tbaiting anymore) that would be way more controversial than this. 
 

to say all rules are admin discretion is a lie. Yeah I guess but in reality if someone is breaking the rules and we see it we aren’t suppose to be looking the other way, we have a certain way to deal with certain things, in cases where people have more powers than other will they use different commands to have different outcomes but they still get punished. Yeah but In the end to say everything all rules are admin discretion is a no but to say how we handle situation is admin discretion.

15 minutes ago, The Real Slim Jim said:

and actually most of his arguments are highly hypothetical, worst case scenario arguments. 

why are people so scared of grey areas.

you can rarely 100% prove a T's intention unless they affirm it. Instead we accept lesser proof as a whole, actionable, intention.

I heard the argument in the last thread about it, which I read and saw inconsistencies in previous writing on the reasoning behind rule changes in the past. I'm not here to have a point blatantly repeated. I'm here for a review of the last decision, which instead I got copy pasted the last verdict.

Gray areas can equal admin complaints, dumbass admin complaints make me not want to even try to admin anymore. I mean I’m here discussing this with you but how you’ve been arguing with scrolls has made me not want to change my mind whatsoever. 

15 minutes ago, The Real Slim Jim said:

so you are telling me they aren't a real problem, but the whole reason the interaction was removed is bc it was seen as a problem.

Write it as lethals are not allowed to be dropped to T"s.  I don't care how the rule is worded, I think that T"s should be able to drop grenades amongst themselves. (excuse my short wording)

admin discretion is a thing, make just lethals a part of gunplanting. my op wasnt a suggestion I had a final solution, but it was asking for it to be addressed by someone who can find one

I never said they weren’t a real problem, cause it was a problem when people would do dumb shit, it made a lot of things confusing and that’s why the previous SMs removed it. But I’m saying it’s a problem cause I know people are always tryna find a way to skirt around rules and make it more confusing. Admin discretion is a thing but I’ve already explained that, they can decide how they want to punish people but at the same time it’s such a dumb thing to punish people for 

15 minutes ago, The Real Slim Jim said:

 

i have re worded the original post to consider the arguments presented to me by you and by scrolls.  sorry if my wording stepped on toes, and was not accurate to my intentions. 

 

It’s not that your wording stepped on toes but like again I’m not gonna be re reading the OP after we’ve already started going back and fourth over it

15 minutes ago, The Real Slim Jim said:

I didn't post it intending to argue on the forums with anyone, id think there would be some sort of discussion amongst those it concerned, followed by a nicely detailed response. not to be shut down on the spot. so if you can see that you will see why the following was somewhat unorganized.

i mean yeah sure he could have given a better response but at the same time I felt like there would be no discussion either because it would be very straight forward 

15 minutes ago, The Real Slim Jim said:

 

 

 

With consideration to what has been told to me,

 

T's should be able to drop nades amongst themselves. gunplantng is not currently a serious issue or something that is abused.  A vast majority of the time JB is populated zero two is on the server to enforce rules, as well as other more junior staff. 

eh I’m sorry Ima say this, it will rarely be used for how you are saying it.

15 minutes ago, The Real Slim Jim said:

so far the only problem with this proposition has been that;

 

staff will have to enforce, 

it’s not a problem that we have to enforce it, if it’s a rule it’s a rule, from my point of view it’s the amount of problems that can stem from it and how annoying it can be

15 minutes ago, The Real Slim Jim said:

 

and that not all nades are equally harmful.

 

staff always have the decision to enforce, to tag, to play like a normal person. 

if there is an admin on that’s tagged up, you can look into admin complaints, there have been an admin complaint on someone when it looked like they were “ignoring” rule breakers (but they weren’t looking at their screen). When we are “undercover” and it’s something stupid I choose to ignore it unless the players try to blow it out of proportion.

15 minutes ago, The Real Slim Jim said:

 

make the change revolve solely around dropping HE nades.

still can do damage with every other nade but not as much as HE, literally the following Im just repeating, situations where a CT drops a T a flash gang they throw it at a CT and damage them for 1 is that CT now punishable because he gave a T something that damaged a fellow CT?

15 minutes ago, The Real Slim Jim said:

 

 I ask for whoever it is replying to now also see the profit in what has been said by me in this thread, albeit it took time to come to a more reasonable post, and to add to what i have asked for here, not to take away from it.

I can’t see the profit in it just cause it’s not always going to be used how you think. But hey I’m only an admin so idk

[20 scrolls]

1 hour ago, The Real Slim Jim said:

• Being able to kill a Prisoner for throwing a grenade at them if there was a reasonable attempt to harm or kill the Guard. The same applies for when a Prisoner is chasing a Guard and knifing at them.

if you throw any grenade, and miss, but its close and was obvious it had the intention of hitting a CT, you are KOS.

Not gonna respond to your post because I'm honestly done, but this is incorrect. The rule is talking about HE grenades and molotovs, not the other ones. The rule is talking about situations where a T throws a grenade, it explodes but doesn't damage the CT. The rule does not apply to decoy, smokes, and flashes, so you are incorrect.

[Zero Two]

I'll shorten/sweeten this up for you guys jailbreak was fine before this nade update and it will be fine without it as of now I see no real reason to change this other than massive player demand and even then it would be heavily talked about before it would be added. So in shorter terms nothing is being added/changed as of right now when it comes to nades and the rules on jailbreak.

I will also be closing this thread due to the fact it is no longer a debate it's just an argument.