The Problems that SG Servers Face in 2020

[urpalerp]

I feel like most things were already said cus I haven't been home most of today but oh well. I wanted to rlly focus on that admins part, while there are certainly some admins who may not do exactly what their supposed to, I think our staff does a great job across all servers. I get how frustrating it can be to see someone rdming and an admin not doing anything about it, but it's normally because they don't know that person is rdming. It's been said countless times that admins are not investigators. They have to see a situation and the background so they know how to take proper action. Plus, there's a protocol we have to follow so an insta ban doesn't work. As well, you said that our ban times are not long enough but I find it to work. Perming somebody for rdming is so extra and unnecessary, 1-3 days is completely fine, as well as the 3 strikes and you're out policy. 

 

Admins are obviously there to deal with rule breakers, but also to play and make the servers a more enjoyable place for the regulars. I can guarantee you that if we had to crack down harder and spectate literally everyone you would never see any admins on anymore, in spec or on a team. 

[blackwolf0005]

@urpalerpYou're not wrong that most of the staff does do well, but there is a reasonably sized bunch that clearly should never have gotten the role, as seen from the examples presented above. At the same time, I would never critique an admin for following protocol, but I feel like it needs to be changed. Too many times has the logic of needing to see something in order to act prevented a person who rdmed multiple people from getting punished. If the logs say it, and the players say it, the only thing that's holding back an administrator from acting is having to see it. Because of this, oftentimes people get away with the most blatant shit, and it only contributes to the growing number of people who rdm for fun, as some may do it because it was done to them once. Plus, I get your argument about needing to actually play and all, but the thing is; most admins that get on never spec at all. I'll likely get flak for this, but I feel that massrdm is something that should warrant a perm, as the day-long bans have not been helping against people who come on to rdm once a month. Popular opinion also needs a place in the rules, as ignoring, say, ten people who are telling you that someone is massrdming, but you can't punish because you couldn't see it, and you know that the shit's in the logs is horrid. It's a disregard of common sense, but because of the protocol, you have to basically turn a blind eye until the next round when you can spectate. Or, maybe you got lucky and you saw it and then you slay the person. Then,  they do the same thing again. It's a lengthy process that I really think has got to go, if the servers are to be rid of these assholes who come on and fuck shit up.

[urpalerp]

7 minutes ago, blackwolf0005 said:

@urpalerpYou're not wrong that most of the staff does do well, but there is a reasonably sized bunch that clearly should never have gotten the role, as seen from the examples presented above. At the same time, I would never critique an admin for following protocol, but I feel like it needs to be changed. Too many times has the logic of needing to see something in order to act prevented a person who rdmed multiple people from getting punished. If the logs say it, and the players say it, the only thing that's holding back an administrator from acting is having to see it. Because of this, oftentimes people get away with the most blatant shit, and it only contributes to the growing number of people who rdm for fun, as some may do it because it was done to them once. Plus, I get your argument about needing to actually play and all, but the thing is; most admins that get on never spec at all. I'll likely get flak for this, but I feel that massrdm is something that should warrant a perm, as the day-long bans have not been helping against people who come on to rdm once a month. Popular opinion also needs a place in the rules, as ignoring, say, ten people who are telling you that someone is massrdming, but you can't punish because you couldn't see it, and you know that the shit's in the logs is horrid. It's a disregard of common sense, but because of the protocol, you have to basically turn a blind eye until the next round when you can spectate. Or, maybe you got lucky and you saw it and then you slay the person. Then,  they do the same thing again. It's a lengthy process that I really think has got to go, if the servers are to be rid of these assholes who come on and fuck shit up.

Everyone has their own opinions, mine is that mass rdm is just not enough to warrant a perm. There are also a lot of admins that spectate, you just wouldn't know because of stealth. 

 

And on your point of if ppl are saying it you should punish them, I have seen in my past days on jb groups of 10+ ppl gang up on an innocent person and accuse them of false things for reasons as stupid as the target is a child. You really can't trust a group of players saying they saw something.

[Toasty]

@blackwolf0005I've been actively admining our TTT server for almost 1.5 years at this point, and was a regular for months prior. With an abundance of experience on both sides of the admin - player spectrum, I'll give my two cents exclusively on the issue you have with our admin protocol on TTT specifically as bluntly as possible. 

 

The way our server has always been designed is that if a bad action occurs, it doesn't necessarily mean that a rule was broken. Logs are simply a tool that allow us to see the black and white of what happened in a round. Gray areas such as if a player was shot AT, but not hit, or what was verbally said, are not reported. I'd like to bring up a situation to add some perspective into this. Try to bear with me here. Let's say theoretically, player A shoots one bullet that nearly hits player B, and runs away, 15 seconds into the round. Player B catches his name, and runs away. 3 minutes later in the round, Player B stumbles upon Player A once again, doesn't say a word, and blows the brains out of Player A. Player C, who is taking a stroll around the area, witnesses this, attempts to kill Player B, but is then killed by Player B, for attempting to kill him, obviously. Player A then goes into admin chat, and cries his eyes out about the rdm he thinks took place. Player C vouches for him over voice chat. The admin then checks logs, sees that there was no reason for the 2 innocent kills (according to logs), acts off of hear-say, and slays Player B. Well that's a false slay.

 

You'd think that a situation like that is a rare occurrence, but boy, with how petty some of the players that have been playing our servers lately are, you're sorely mistaken. The only way for an admin to get enough information to act upon a scenario such as this is if he saw it with his own two eyes. And that's just one example I see happen pretty often, and trust me, there are a whole lot more. The TTT team has recently taken steps to fixing this issue with the removal of t-bait. But obviously, I agree with you in some aspects. At a certain point, a line must be drawn. This line, however, isn't so easy to draw, because of how gray our server is. 

 

When a rule-break is reported to us admins, it's in our best interest to at least keep an eye on whoever it might be. If an admin refuses to acknowledge the issues happening on the server at a given time, that's a whole 'nother issue and a can of worms I won't be opening in this post. 

[Kataoka]

1 hour ago, blackwolf0005 said:

@GentooI know that I’ve been pretty lacking terms of solutions, but I wouldn’t have made this post if I felt that it was at least being addressed. This month, like I stated earlier, has been a real fuck-up. There’s been more rule-breakers than usual and multiple admins have had drama, including a discord riot that resulted in one of them getting doxed, and it just seems like everyone is kiting over these problems. I’m not trying to disagree with you, but there really need to be changes to the rules and the server, as it’s getting unbearable. Thanks for the response.

 

 

Not all of my response is just going to be to this one quote, I'm just too lazy to quote all the rest.

 

Lacking in terms of solutions doesn't help cause you bring up these problems but yet I can literally just say more admins to everything but technical issues. And yes some admins do go on to play, but they are going to enforce the rules when they see something happen, he said she said really does nothing for admins and just creates more problems. I don't know how admin drama relates to any of the TTT problems, and it wasn't kitied over people were permed ban for the doxxing, That shit isn't taken lightly nor will it ever be, you can always make player complaints by yourself if you see people rdming and you want to take the time to help, you know you could also be helping in getting people punished rather than just sitting there like maybe some admins do, but to say something needs change, possibly it does, but what? For all I've read the only rule-breaker solution is just admins stepping up which they generally do if they are on, they will take their time and they need to see a full interaction to even punish on TTT because just seeing someone get killed doesn't always provide a full story, whether you think it is a dumb rule or not its meant to help the admins so they don't go fuck themselves over because they listened to the wrong side, It's not going to be changed because the ATs of the server has tried to get it changed but it was shot down a few months ago. I think TTT has been generally going in the right direction, the admins do their job to the best that they can, tbh yeah some admins do want to come on just to chill, but if they see multiple reports of someone they are going to go and deal with it. Again if its that unbearable try to help with solutions, if the ATs are seeing its going in a wrong direction they do step in and make changes because they want to keep their servers alive and healthy. A lot of admins and higher ups are constantly in the talks about TTT and changes within it when I was CA, if they see something as a prominent issue it will be brought up and be taken care of. And to the warnings thing, if I saw someone rdm I can technically just start off with a kick, it depends on how that admin wants to go about using their power and what warnings they want to take care, everyone admins differently, its just different styles of how people want to admin, not everyone goes about it the same way, we kinda try to stay non-robotic and its not really current protocol that requires us to hold off from banning people but we generally don't want to ban people that could learn the rules and become regs, we want to give people chances whether they are new or not. Protocol is warn (which can be anything from a slay, mute, kick, gag), warn a second time if you deem necessary or go straight to ban depending on the severity. Not everything requires instant bans, you can't see when admins go in spectate because it puts them in stealth and makes them disappear from the server logs, so they can watch in peace and the person they are watching doesn't know they are watching them, and to someone who is unfamiliar with stealth it will seem like they are gone too...

 

Dominic stepped down, and months later he decided to take a higher up position at another place and start his own server, after starting it him and his little buddy zayne decided to start causing a little bit of trouble here and there while they were advertising their new server on our own TTT Server, but he had no personal gain when he was BD putting in a bunch of work non of his work benefited him but the community so to say he's a decent example of "a problem with application system" is stupid Oh no an admin called you a name on another game such a tragedy! People are held accountable for what they say if it actually deems punishment whether admin or not, their rank does not matter when it comes to punishment. For the discord server, it's not like they couldn't just rebuild it and go about it in a peaceful way instead of you know Doxxing the staff, its a server that can be rebuilt whether or not you can get everyone back in it, that's another question but again to go so far as to doxx and start throwing names and shit talking the staff, yeah whole thing probably could have been avoided in the first place on two fronts. The BDs have the final say in anybody becoming admin but the community helps guide that judgement because the BDs can't take time and get to know everybody with such a huge community. Take Krumzie as an example, he got an overwhelming amount of support and barely any reapplies but because of how he acts towards people and his previous histories he was rejected because he isn't the right fit towards what they want as admins whether he knows the rules or not. Also if you wanted to because maybe you think you could do a better job as admin then some of these people, then apply, but from what I'm seeing from you, you would barely be able to handle half of it from what I've seen you complain about so far and from your responses to some of the people. Also to say some of these people didn't deserve their role when they put a ton of their effort into the community from what you can never see is beyond me, Dominic was a great higher up but he fell off after he stepped down, Poke was really good in conversations and helping test stuff and doing events and being involved and the community and getting feedback from them. These are just two i'm going to name just because I don't feel like going into every little detail, but what people do outside of the community or after they step down or leave does not define how they were as an admin, their actions on other places like that discord also doesn't define how they are as an admin and has no relevance to how they are on the servers.

 

For interactions on TTT I see people always talking when I'm on, some admins don't have mics but to say they aren't participating in the community is just stupid because you don't need a mic to be involved, there is a reason for chat and the chat is mostly always going people are talking. Not all old regs have time to come on the server anymore people have lives where they have to move on, I'm in a group chat with a bunch of old TTT regs and everyone of them is too involved w/ life, had to sell their computer, etc. There is a point and time when people have to stop playing and just focus on the people around them or work/school. Some may manage to find time here and there to hop on but the majority may not have time. I mean you can always start interactions with people and maybe try to get a discord going try to help build friendships but sure maybe there is a lack of people talking, older players starting to fall off because they are getting older. School's starting again so servers pop start to go down more, people might be going to college with dorming, Summers coming to an end so to say rn "Oh the community is starting to fall and fall more" well yeah its inevitable not everyone has the time to be online now, even if it is online schooling they still have to prepare and get ready for those classes, maybe get ready to get back into a normal sleep schedule, getting ready to leave their homes for dorming, or even just preping for their online classes.

 

For !calladmin in the main discord there is a section where it goes to, you may see that some people have a TTT-admin rank, this means whenever someone uses call admin they get pinged and notified that something is going on with the description you give, but not all people can hop on right away, you know people do have lives and are busy, the admins aren't glued to the keyboard and have their eyes forced open onto the screens. And for the TTT admins I know if they really wanted to stay undercover they could give one fuck if someone rdm'd them or not, but if they notice that person has been rdming they slay them not because of "a personal shield" because they can see what the fuck happened since they got killed by them.

[blackwolf0005]

@urpalerpThe reason why I suggested perming mass rdmers is because the rate at which they are currently being perma-banned is much slower than the rate at which more come on. Though it’s a much more aggressive approach I feel like it has to happen. Plus your comment in the JB server is why popular opinion should only be applied to the TTT server, as there’s far fewer dickbags on there and more regulars. But yeah, fair points.

[Hawks]

First off I wanna say this was well constructed and thought out I enjoyed reading it and understanding your full reasoning that you have experienced.

 
I would also like to address your concerns by the topic.

 

Rule Breakers.

 

I completely agree. Rule breaking has become much more rampant in the servers its much more noticeable. And its increasing as days go by I find. I have no real quarrel with what you said here.

 

The Lack of Community

 

I find this very hard to believe, I was motivated by the player base on TTT and the Discord to become admin. The community aspect is there I guess you just aren't lining up when certain chatty individuals are on. This could drastically change the vibe of the server when no one wants to chat and I get that, it sucks not being able to have good fun in comms, its one of my favourite things too.

 

Admins

 

First off hear I wanna apologize if you think I'm not trying when you are on the server. I want you to understand that this is never my intention and I always strive to be better. Your criticism about this actually makes me want to try harder an improve as admin. I always strive to put in 1 hour a day on to TTT despite my busy work week schedule and despite putting in more time on the weekends. I am convinced I need to step it up.

 

Second. I do agree about the inexperience some of our newer admins have been showing. Its a work in progress I ask you give them the benefit of the doubt. We all are in a staff discord and are communicating at the drop of a hat. If anyone has questions they got their and everyone is helpful.

 

Third. Catching rule breakers is tougher then you think. As stated earlier PROTOCOL must be followed and is something I personally take very seriously. Without the protocol all admins would punish differently. This is critical to have, to make sure people are on the same page on why a rule breaker must be punished. Circumstance also is a critical factor when punishing a player. I have to judge, gather evidence and logs to administer a proper punishment, a lot of personal judgement is also heavily applied to this which you may not agree with.

 

Fourth. I do agree with the lack of action from individuals and the use of casual rule breaking from admins its there and believe me we tell them when they are in the wrong. 

 

Lastly. I see less and less of the @ being using on server. easiest way to get a rule breaker caught is not to !calladmin but you use @ in chat. I am in spec a lot when i'm on after work and I have the rules on my second monitor not the Calladmin chat in discord. This feature I find is critical for admins and should maybe be improved on.

 

Try to throw solutions, an argument always has a solution in the works so please talk about what you'd change to fix the problems you are seeing.

 

All in all I wanna say thank you for what you said. I am advent on seeing more people like you talk on the forums and in VC. Its people like you that spark change an progress within SG that are needed most.

 

Cheers.

 

 

 

 

 

[blackwolf0005]

@ToastyYour points are all true and are literally flawless; but the problem is that you misunderstood me. I’m not saying that every case of suspected rdm and rule-breaking should be based off logs and testament, I’m saying only some should be. Since you provided an example, I’ll provide mine. Say you’re on the TTT server and you notice that after you die, multiple people shout to you that they got rdmed by the same person. You check logs next round, and see that he’s murdered five innocents as a detective with no breaks in the logs. Which one should win here, common sense? Or protocol? Because I think you would be hard-pressed to imagine a situation in which the detective was justified. That’s why I think that logs and popular opinion should only be applied to mass-rdm, as it’s pretty obvious what happened based on logs and testimony. You are correct in saying, however, that it would be horrid for minor cases of rdm, which is much more complicated.

[blackwolf0005]

@Mikey.I promise I’ll respond, but I will need a few things from you first. For one, please divide your paragraphs into thirds, as it’s impossible to read. Second, can you remove the additional sentences that are very clearly vestigial that you for some reason posted? And third, I don’t know what I did to make you so defensive in your page against me, but you’re throwing accusations. None of my responses to anyone so far have been aggressive.

[blackwolf0005]

@HawksFirstly, I want to say that I won't name anyone besides the blatantly obvious, like Dominic, but I’ve got no complaints with you either. If you thought that I was targeting you somehow when I said that I had problems with the admins, I ensure that it was a more generalized statement that didn’t have any specifications.

 

Second, it’s not really all about just inexperience that I’m finding with some admins. It’s more the character and the fact that they got let in, in the first place. Maybe they acted differently when they were applying I don’t know, but it’s just something else that I feel supports my argument that the application process has to be tighter and actually need you to know the person, as in their personality, so they’re not an asshole in disguise.

 

Thirdly, perhaps your community experiences are different when you’re on the server, but during the past two months that I’ve been back, the most depressing times playing has been when there’s no one to really chat with. You could have sixteen people on the server and feel just really depressed because no one wants to try and interact with each other. I don’t know, maybe I’m just being a little bitch, but I feel like the player interaction has dropped as fewer and fewer regulars are coming back.

 

Fourthly, in response to your statements on the difficulty of catching rule-breakers in the act, having to follow protocol, and my inability to propose solutions, have a look at my most recent response to Toasty. I do believe that the protocol should be revised so that punishments can be issued faster, and permanent bans need to be issued to mass-rdmers in order to outpace the rate at which new rdmers come onto the server. Also, the implementation of using popular opinion and the logs against mass-rdmers would have virtually no margin of error and make it much easier to punish, as it’s pretty damn difficult to explain, say, murdering five innocents as a detective while the five who were killed scream, “RDM.”

 

Fifthly, there’s not a whole lot that can be done about people using admin chat. I joined in 2017, so obviously I know to use it, but it’s more that newer players are never told about this feature. With the inflow of these newer players from the F2P update, this is the perfect time to capitalize and update the server for the better and create new regulars.

 

Anyways, thanks for your support and critiques. I really do appreciate the discussion, and your backing in truing to change the servers.

 

Also, I’ve always wanted to ask, what the fuck was it that happened between Dominic and Poke for them to be so aggressive on Poke’s goodbye message?