Lightyear: Ain't no son of mine seeing two girls kiss

[John]

Just now, Strayyz said:

I went to look at the scene everyone has their panties in a twist over and, THATS IT? ARE YOU FUCKING KIDING ME THATS FUCKING NOTHING. THESE MOTHER FUCKERS ARE MAKING IT SEEM LIKE THEY HAD GAY SEX ON CAMERA. It was literally just a little peck on the lips welcoming her girlfriend home, there have been way longer and more romantic kisses with straight couples in movies aimed at kids. I dont think anyones kids will be affected much after seeing this in the movie.

bro i already said this word for word

[Strayyz]

Just now, John said:

bro i already said this word for word

i didnt care enough to read any of the posts in this thread my bad

[John]

Just now, Strayyz said:

i didnt care enough to read any of the posts in this thread my bad

no youre fine. you've been through enough with the car accident and all. i dont fault you one bit because you're a great guy and you have great intentions with everything you do. let's forget about this and move on with our night. do better

[Strayyz]

4 minutes ago, John said:

no youre fine. you've been through enough with the car accident and all. i dont fault you one bit because you're a great guy and you have great intentions with everything you do. let's forget about this and move on with our night. do better

i appreciate you accepting my appology and thinking about my accident john it means a lot, you are a real stand up guy and I dont know where I'd be without your guidence. i agree and lets put this behind us. wishing you well from uzbekistan - strayyz

[jazzy]

12 hours ago, Gentoo said:

Your kids are going to grow up and have sex one day so why keep them waiting, what are you gonna delay the inevitable?

Honestly after the discussion we had in VC it had me deep in thought a little bit on 2 things:

(irrelevant) 1) It's kind of funny how the last 3 threads have all ended up revolving almost entirely around babies/children/kids/teenagers and almost all involving the same base topic- the idea that kids have very little rights/protections on their own and require external protection and/or supervision. The reality is our discussions, viewpoints, and voting habits determine entire lives of people because by in-large children have no recourse to change much on their own during adolescence. It's a little scary if you think about it!

 

2) Your comment (in vc) on children and their need for attention guiding their actions holds true, but I think it was a little too black & white the more I thought about it. I think back to studies that show just believing babies got hurt by doing something will cause them to cry, even though nothing really happened to hurt them other than that set expectation. But---- edit: just realized I didn't really fully finish this thought out, something something kids are also inquisitive and do need curiosity and can critically think about topics on their own something something

 

I think it comes down to this:
Parents make the immediate decision on what is best for their kids using their available knowledge, experience, personalty, blah blah etc. However, being a parent doesn't immediately make you right, and it doesn't and shouldn't mean you have complete and utter control. Universally we all pretty agree there's a level of biological right that everyone should be able to have kids, but there really isn't some sort of god given right you can be a parent. In fact, in almost all countries there are methods of separating unfit parents with children.

So going into Gumline's point of (tldr: "it's their kid, their monkey, their circus"). To a point, yes. But there's a consideration of societal benefit in that. We probably all agree that someone cooking meth in the basement of their house as their 3 kids play upstairs probably isn't good for the kids, or society. In almost all states that's a felony outright (manuf/distr/poss of scheduled drugs in the presence of a minor).

 

So when someone says "I don't want my kids seeing gay people kiss" I get nervous around this type of behavior. First off- is there societal benefit towards hiding the existence of gay people from a child? Considering we protect many classes of people and gay people are one of them, this fails the sniff test, in my opinion. It's really no different than hiding the existence of minorities, or even the opposite sex from your child. It comes off as incredibly dangerous- the failure to create an atmosphere where your child interacts with different types of people and understands and empathizes with them. But second off- it's not really just about gay people in kid's movies. There's a serious connotation that if you're unwilling to show the existence of gay people in movies, are you also accepting of them? If this closed minded movie-goer doesn't want to show his kids a gay person kissing, would he or she APPROVE of their kid being gay?

 

The number one most important thing as a parent is really to keep them alive, keep them healthy, and prepare your child for society/real life/whatever. Are you adequately preparing your child by hiding things they should know? Gentoo's strawman is a little bit loose. I don't think anyone is saying what he's arguing, but honestly, shouldn't kids KNOW about sex, genders, races, religion, etc? If you don't really understand or are exposed to these things, this can be somewhat dangerous.

 

Final 2 cents:

One of my biggest failures as a person was on here when I attacked someone's sexual identity. It was a complete and utter moral failure on my part, and part of that antisocial behavior was the lack of understanding and empathizing environment surrounding it. It is 2022 and I saw someone make an almost word for word insult that I made just that small 10ish years ago. In some ways, it feels like little has changed here. A lot of the world has moved on but so many people in this community (until recently it seems) used the F slur, some people still use "gay" to mean lame, or dumb in discord. I think it's just an example of creating an anti-gay environment creates these kind of opinions and creates these rifts. Gay people are still treated like second rate citizens, and any attempt to normalize their existence is met with profound pushback from a die hard set of vocal people insistent on THEIR moral failures.

 

We can say legalities this, legalities that, but I find myself in disbelief that not everyone on this community is on the same page- the idea that playing some sort of devil's advocate for these parents is a reasonable stance to make. We should inform, educate, and realign- not defend these viewpoints. Are these viewpoints really defensible? Were things like segregation defensible? To me the inability for many gay people in the world to still be included on a level playing field as hetero couples is just a sign of identity segregation. Pixar can make 100 movies with straight couples but the second they even hint at a gay couple its met with disdain? It ain't right, folks.

[Gentoo]

10 minutes ago, jazzy said:

Parents make the immediate decision on what is best for their kids using their available knowledge, experience, personalty, blah blah etc. However, being a parent doesn't immediately make you right, and it doesn't and shouldn't mean you have complete and utter control. Universally we all pretty agree there's a level of biological right that everyone should be able to have kids, but there really isn't some sort of god given right you can be a parent. In fact, in almost all countries there are methods of separating unfit parents with children.

This is definitely a fringe opinion, but I think that where the line is drawn should be a lot more lenient in my opinion than where you might consider appropriate. I think as far as things are concerned, as long as the parents are able to care for the child's basic physical needs (affection, nutrition, etc.) and doesn't show clear signs of abuse or ill intent in raising their children, nobody else needs to or should get involved. Is it possible that they might teach them things that aren't right? Sure. Who's to say that that's not going to happen should anyone else be involved? Do we as a society always know what's right? Does the state know what's right? Despite what I may have grown up thinking or been taught at home, I ran into different ideas and perspectives with other children or being taught at school throughout my childhood - that's what socialization is. I can say not all of those ideas were right. We were taught things about math, science, and history that weren't true. 

 

I think the bottom line is that as long as kids grow up a loving family, they'll do alright it in life. I think parents should have the ability to raise, shelter, protect and teach their kids. I think cultures should be able to exist and propagate. Religion should be protected. The whole reason we're here in the first place is because of the diversity of of ideas we have anyways. Do you think that's going to propagate in a healthy way of you start saying the state has the supreme authority on what's right and true and they can take your kids if you don't engrain that in them?

 

23 minutes ago, jazzy said:

So going into Gumline's point of (tldr: "it's their kid, their monkey, their circus"). To a point, yes. But there's a consideration of societal benefit in that.

I don't see collectivism as an immediate justification to dispense with personal freedoms.

 

28 minutes ago, jazzy said:

So when someone says "I don't want my kids seeing gay people kiss" I get nervous around this type of behavior. First off- is there societal benefit towards hiding the existence of gay people from a child? Considering we protect many classes of people and gay people are one of them, this fails the sniff test, in my opinion. It's really no different than hiding the existence of minorities, or even the opposite sex from your child. It comes off as incredibly dangerous- the failure to create an atmosphere where your child interacts with different types of people and understands and empathizes with them. But second off- it's not really just about gay people in kid's movies. There's a serious connotation that if you're unwilling to show the existence of gay people in movies, are you also accepting of them? If this closed minded movie-goer doesn't want to show his kids a gay person kissing, would he or she APPROVE of their kid being gay?

 

The number one most important thing as a parent is really to keep them alive, keep them healthy, and prepare your child for society/real life/whatever. Are you adequately preparing your child by hiding things they should know? Gentoo's strawman is a little bit loose. I don't think anyone is saying what he's arguing, but honestly, shouldn't kids KNOW about sex, genders, races, religion, etc? If you don't really understand or are exposed to these things, this can be somewhat dangerous.

I'm getting really tired so I'm gonna wrap this up, I'll most likely find some time tomorrow to expound upon this but just quick notes for now. I think 'accepting' is a poor word to use and sets the standard further than what most people actually think or expect. 'Tolerate' comes off as a bit harsh, but I think more of 'indefference' is the most you should expect or require of people. If you'd like to explain what the word means to you and why you chose it go ahead. I think tribalism is alive and well and something deeply engrained in people's minds. I think there's an inevitability of it and you can see it in all of the people around you. There's always going to be in groups and put groups. More often than not, most people aren't even 'tolerant' or 'indifferent' to those outgroups. Today it takes many forms - class, culture, political alignment, friend group, gang affiliation, whatever. The way people act and talk about these groups tells you all you need to know about the existence of it. Eat the rich, these people shouldn't be able to talk, be able to vote. People have an deep need to know who they are with and who they are not with. I genuinely think it is impossible to do away with this seemingly biological mechanism in people. People literally get off thinking they are sticking it to the other side or scoring for the team - look at how people in any of these threads behave. What important is that people understand how to treat others, not making sure that they are educated on the specifics of what groups exist and why. I understand that it's controversial to say this, but I'm sure you understand I'm not saying this with ill intent. There are legitimate reasons why someone would want to avoid exposing their children to certain aspects of that community in it's current state - religious and bigoted dispositions aside. Oversexualization, animosity, the dysphoria and confusion in the trans and other parts of the community (regardless of your opinion, the norm has changed drastically over the last 5-10 years, it's obvious that it's not clear what's 'true' and what isn't even to them, what's healthy for kids, what medical intervention is healthy and appropriate). So long as parents are loving and understanding, kids are going to grow up and learn who they are much more effectively with the support of their community than reading what some groomer tells them they think online.

 

Lastly, hiding things from your kids does not mean they are going to grow up hating it. If you teach your kids to respect and understand others, that's all they need to know. I saw someone with what I assume to be Botox horns the other day at work. Do you know what I did? I served them their food and told them to have a nice day.

[jazzy]

9 hours ago, Gentoo said:

Despite what I may have grown up thinking or been taught at home, I ran into different ideas and perspectives with other children or being taught at school throughout my childhood - that's what socialization is.

But that's my point. If you have people purposely limiting the intermingling of new ideas or perspectives this is dangerous. Sheltering your kids from the existence of gay ppl is not an adequate viewpoint in my opinion. It's a sign of fear or anger that your child could latch onto as well.

9 hours ago, Gentoo said:

Do you think that's going to propagate in a healthy way of you start saying the state has the supreme authority on what's right and true and they can take your kids if you don't engrain that in them?

I think you're trying to put words into my mouth.

9 hours ago, Gentoo said:

I don't see collectivism as an immediate justification to dispense with personal freedoms.

Not very comrade of you.

9 hours ago, Gentoo said:

There are legitimate reasons why someone would want to avoid exposing their children to certain aspects of that community in it's current state

This sounds like an argument of don't show kids drag queen shows. We're talking about two women having a kiss. Like I said, been done before with straight couples w/ no issues.

9 hours ago, Gentoo said:

o long as parents are loving and understanding,

See that's the crux of my argument- this doesn't sound very understanding

9 hours ago, Gentoo said:

Lastly, hiding things from your kids does not mean they are going to grow up hating it.

Sure, nothing is set in stone. But my argument isn't just that they're hiding it. It's a very definitive sign they're bigoted if they're unfeeling enough to hide it. Like I said, there seems to be a serious connotation if you have a problem with the existence of gay people in movies that you would not approve of your child being gay.

[Gentoo]

10 minutes ago, jazzy said:

But that's my point. If you have people purposely limiting the intermingling of new ideas or perspectives this is dangerous. Sheltering your kids from the existence of gay ppl is not an adequate viewpoint in my opinion. It's a sign of fear or anger that your child could latch onto as well

I think that's the same as saying American cities are diverse because they have a bunch of brown people when everyone is collectively essentially living under the same culture, way of life, hivemind apart from the music they listen to and food they eat at home. You have to give people and communities the agency to operate and carry out their way of life if you won't diversity to exist in any meaningful extent - this isn't about gay people, it's about cultures in general, you don't get to stick your fingers in other lies and cherry pick what is and isn't acceptable outside of the boundaries of the law. I mentioned Christianity in this thread but plenty of other cultures have a norm of keeping this from the public eye such as 90% of non-first-world countries, the military, Islam, etc. Do you think the militaries long standing policy of "Don't ask, don't tell" is fear and anger? More than half those dudes are desert gay, are they afraid of themselves?

 

18 minutes ago, jazzy said:

think you're trying to put words into my mouth.

You mentioned the government discerning who is and isn't fit to parent so I assumed that's what you were alluding to suggesting. If it's not it seems you're just looking at other cultures and trying to tell them they're wrong and shouldn't be doing that. Maybe they are, that's not going to stop them from doing it within the confines of the law.

 

19 minutes ago, jazzy said:

This sounds like an argument of don't show kids drag queen shows. We're talking about two women having a kiss. Like I said, been done before with straight couples w/ no issues.

It's not, I assume you know what I'm talking about and are just baiting. But while on the topic of drag shows, pride parades and all that, I'm curious what you think about this. Is publicly displaying sex toys in public where you know impressionable children will be appropriate? What motivates this sort of behavior, what does it do for the movement? I hope you have something more insightful to say than 'they've probably heard about sex from their friends at this point so why not give them the whole charade'.